Je suis tombé dessus et j’ai été un peu surpris. Des pensées là-dessus? (Veuillez retirer si déjà posté)
[Raymond a Defensive Liability](https://detroithockeynow.com/2023/01/28/analytics-indicating-raymond-a-defensive-liability-for-red-wings/)
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HavingFunAlone
18 Comments
He’s learning in a tough environment. Let’s not forget that that line gets the toughest matchups. As long as he’s showing progress in that part of his game, I’m willing to take the lumps.
Meh he’s a 20 year old offense first winger. He’ll get better as he ages, if he can continue putting up points I don’t give a shit about his defense at the moment.
He’s young, very young, it’s expected.
You can teach good offensive players to be good defensively. Much harder to do the opposite. I’d rather have him excelling offensively when he’s this young and his defensive game will develop in time.
Not as much as our bright red pylon
I hate the critiques on the Bert/Larks/Raymond line because they’ve barely played together this season. Bert being out kills any real chemistry and he hasn’t even been an offensive threat when he did play. The other guys they’ve had on the top line haven’t been defensive stars either.
Raymond is an NHL baby who’s learning NHL level defense on the top line. That’s extremely difficult, however he’s young with a rapidly developing game. He’ll be fine.
Yea sure. Move him to the fourth line and get a grinder to the first, that is the right move right?
> On the other hand, Bertuzzi and Larkin together are like night and day without Raymond on their line. They’ve created eight scoring chances while allowing three. They’ve manufactured five high danger chances while allowing only one, an 83.3% success rate.
I don’t doubt that Raymond hasn’t been great defensively, but this kind of analysis just makes Duff look like an idiot. Acting as if that is a big enough sample to make any conclusion is exactly why WOWY stats are so annoying.
This article talks about +/- type of stuff with goals/shots/scoring chances against. There are 5 guys on the ice. How much of the defensive responsibility is on Raymond’s shoulders? Sure, he needs to be responsible and cover his assignments on D, but don’t wings generally have less defensive responsibility? I guess unless the opponent has a defenseman who jumps deep into the offensive zone a lot.
I don’t think this is concerning, it is just trying to compare how lines perform in +/-, Corsi, whatever when Raymond is with/without certain players. It doesn’t actually break down what he does/doesn’t do to drive those numbers, if there is anything.
He’s a young 20 year old second year player. He’s going to have tough matchups as a top line player going against other top lines. His +/- numbers will look not so good when playing on a bad team.
A 20 year old playing on the top line in his season is making defensive mistakes? Im shocked
He’s young and the NHL is a tough league. He was noted as a good two way player so it will just take time. If he looked like he did not learn and grow into things or was not highly motivated that would be more concern. Not worried about him or Seider.
This article is absolute garbage.
The numbers they use to come to this conclusion aren’t big enough for a sample size, and the metrics they use don’t really prove anything conclusively.
They evaluate offensive/defensive numbers based on Larkin/Raymond vs Larkin/bertuzzi, except the sample size for Larkin/bertuzzi is like 11 plays, compared to 250+ for Larkin/Raymond.
And that is literally their only metric in coming to this conclusion. It’s click bate, and just atrocious journalism
I’m not clicking the article, but I almost always notice him back checking hard as hell. Maybe he’s over doing it and chasing in areas he shouldn’t be? But if your team is running smoothly, the teammates should be filling in those gaps.
Will he become an elite 200ft player like yzerman and hossa did 4-5 years into their careers, most likely not.
Is his defense something to worry about currently in his sophomore year, most likely not.
He’s young and over matched physically at this point still. Let him get a bit older and while I don’t think he’ll ever be a great defensive player he has all the right instincts to be responsible defensively.
He’s a 20 year old winger playing on the top line of a bad team. Of course he sucks defensively. He’s not playing on a solidly defensive team, he’s an offensively minded player, and he’s playing against each team’s best talent every night.
It’s not new, or strange, for a 20 year old to be struggling at defense in the NHL. It’s why dmen usually take more time to develop. It’s why you rarely see someone under 25/26 looking at Selke votes (Matthews is an exception and he’s generational).
He’ll get there. This isn’t unusual or even concerning. Raymond isn’t solid defensively. Outside of Lundell, what forward under 21 is right now?
WHAT. Some games he’s amazing defensively. He’s just inconsistent as his energy level wasn’t up to par until recently. Saying he’s a liability more than other players on the team means some people might not actually be watching the games.
His defensive play has not stood out to me. Considering I think our forwards in general are doing a bad job in the defensive zone, I’m not surprised he has bad numbers.